Is IP another bubble about to burst? A view from another civilization.

 
(28 votes)

As a child growing up in India, one of the first things I learned is a hymn to Saraswati, the Goddess of Knowledge, which says that:

Wonderful is your gift of knowledge
the more we share, the more it grows
the more we hoard it, the more it diminishes

As a grown-up living in a globalized world, I am constantly bombarded by the the term, “intellectual property.” Policy makers keep saying that India should create more IP. Countless seminars extol the virtues of IP even as patents are granted for “Method for swinging on a swing,” "Method for Concealing Partial Baldness." In the computer industry, patents are routinely granted for things that are obvious and have been known for years. Things have come to such a pass that even an industry veteran like Andy Grove was forced to say that,  “The true value of an invention is its usefulness to the public. Patents themselves have become products. They're instruments of investment traded on a separate market, often by speculators motivated by the highest financial return on their investment....

“The patent product brings financial derivatives to mind. Derivatives have a complex relationship with an underlying asset. While there's nothing wrong with them in principle, their unfettered use has damaged the financial services industry and possibly the entire economy."

“Do these patent instruments put us on a similar road? I fear our patent system increasingly serves those who invest in the patent products.” When a veteran like Andy Grove becomes paranoid, you and I better watch out!

Patents were meant to reward innovation, so the question is, "How did we lose our way?"

The current model of trying to "propertize," "privatize" and "commoditize" knowledge comes from a very mercantile, reductionist model of treating knowledge. That may be OK for other countries, which have "intellectual propertized" their knowledge and hold the balance of power in IP Rights, but not for India which has had a long, rich tradition of free knowledge cultures like yoga, ayurveda, mathematics and many other disciplines. It would not be far-fetched to say that many Indian traditions place a moral imperative on sharing knowledge.

One of my favorite stories illustrates the importance accorded to the sharing of knowledge. After the brutal battle of Kalinga, the Emperor Ashoka was so overcome with remorse that he renounced bloodshed and embraced Buddhism. As part of his penance, Ashoka went to monasteries across the country. At each monastery, he would leave munificent donations of gold coins. At one monastery, the emperor left behind one solitary gold coin. When his perplexed followers asked him to explain, Ashoka said that the abbot of the monastery was a great man but he did not share his knowledge with others.

This is a deep-seated ethos that is thousands of years old. This is the ethos that created open knowledge traditions like yoga, ayurveda etc, that are freely used by all. However, when India seeks to use "their" "intellectual property" (allopathic medicine, software and business method patents etc.) we are told, "pay up or else...." Talk about an unequal exchange!

The contrast is best illustrated by what happened with Bikram Yoga taught by celebrity yoga teacher, Bikram Chowdhury who makes a fortune teaching yoga to Americans. Bikram copyrighted a series of 26 postures and two breathing exercises practiced in a room heated upto 105 degrees Fahrenheit. Note that Yoga is a body of knowledge which has been free from copyrights, patents and "intellectual property" for more than 2000 years. When asked why, Bikram said that he sought legal protection because "it's the American way."

Each society evolves systems that suit its own needs. Most of India's traditions of knowledge spring forth from a spiritual base whereas America's treatment of knowledge has a mercantile bias. This is not to pass a value judgment on either. The problem arises when, in a globalizing society the two systems clash and are unable to harmonize with each other.

Sadly most of India's thinking around legal protection of knowledge has been "derivative" in nature, a shoddy cut and paste job from the "mature IP systems" of the West. However, as the Bilski case shows, even these "mature IP systems" are having second thoughts on how they treat knowledge, or in this specific case, business methods. As I have argued in my previous blog entry, "The Practical Problem with Software Patents," the litigation-ridden path followed by US in granting software and business method patents is something India must avoid at all costs.

I could go on and on, but let me just end with one small piece of evidence. As I mentioned earlier, I have grown up in an Indian tradition that believes that knowledge grows by sharing. Does this wisdom hold true in the Internet era?

In September 1991, Linus Torvalds released 10,000 lines of code for building an operating system, under the General Public License. The GPL license encouraged people to take this 10,000 lines of code, modify it and share the resulting improvements with the rest of the world. A recent study by the Linux Foundation estimated that the code base for the Fedora 9 Linux distribution is now 204 million lines of code!

This is one of the finest examples of Collaborative Innovation that has been made possible by the growth of the Internet. With 1.4 billion people connected to the Internet and another 600 million set to join up in the next two years, the Internet is the greatest collaborative platform in the history of mankind. The attempt to "propertize" knowledge in the Internet era is doomed to fail. Instead, we will see knowledge returning to its rightful place in the commons and the open source principles of collaboration, community and the shared ownership of knowledge being applied to thousands of disciplines. As the commercial distributions of Linux demonstrate, even when knowledge lives in the commons, it is possible to build profitable business models around it.

When we look back on our times, we may find that the term, "Intellectual Property" has taken its place along side another archaic term, "Horseless Carriage." Both were attempts to impose metaphors of the past on the future. And the folly of our times is that we treat inexhaustible resources like knowledge as finite resource and treat finite resources like oil and forests as infinite resources. The sooner we turn these attitudes around, the better it will be for the future of mankind.

Venkatesh Hariharan is Corporate Affairs Director (Asia-Pacific), Red Hat.

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81 Comments

KaruppuSwamy Thangaraj's picture

I agree with your opinion100%. This is one of the great posts in recent times I have read. Definitely India can't digest totally closed knowledge.
The current model of trying to "propertize," "privatize" and "commoditize" knowledge comes from a very mercantile, reductionist model of treating knowledge. That may be OK for other countries, which have "intellectual propertized" their knowledge and hold the balance of power in IP Rights, but not for India which has had a long, rich tradition of free knowledge cultures like yoga, ayurveda, mathematics and many other disciplines. It would not be far-fetched to say that many Indian traditions place a moral imperative on sharing knowledge
This is the core of this article.

PeniWize's picture

Correction

"In September 2001, Linus Torvalds released..." should read "In September 1991, Linus Torvalds released..." (unless I'm confused).

Gary Hottinger's picture

Wisdom vs Selfishness

It is rare to see this kind of insight from an information technology "executive." While you are right--right from a human perspective, not only Indian--the wisdom tradition has long depended on the ravages of an age of selfishness to make wisdom evident and desirable.

Here in the US, the selfishness dominates, and yet it claims that without its greed to innovate, there would be no technological advancements. is there not an element of truth in this? The tension of opposites.

Venkatesh Hariharan (Venky)'s picture

@KaruppuSwamy Thangaraj: Thanks for the appreciation. The paragraph that you highlighted is definitely the core of my article.

@PeniWize: Thanks for pointing the error. Linux was launched in Sept. 1999 and not September 2001. Will have it corrected at the earliest.

@Gary Hottinger: Thanks for the appreciation. I would phrase things a little differently. From my perspective as an Indian, I feel that America's policies are driven by an individualist creed and also a huge emphasis on the private sector. Therefore, America tends to lean heavily towards the privatization of knowledge. (I am not trying to pass a value judgment here; merely trying to understand the forces shaping policy). Societies that are more community oriented probably tend to value knowledge being in the commons rather than private hands. Every society has some knowledge in private hands and some in the commons. The real tension is where do you draw the line between shat should be in the commons and what should be private property. Apart from globalization, I feel that cultural forces play a huge role in how each society draws this line.

Finally, I would agree with you that there is a grain of truth in the statement that, "without its greed to innovate, there would be no technological advancements." However, it is a grain that has been excessively marketed and even mythologized. What percentage of innovation happens because of "greed" is a subject worthy of objective analysis and if you come across such research, feel free to point them out to us.

Personally, I think innovation is more of an inner drive. (I speak here more as an IT person, and I am sure people in the pharma industry would disagree with me, perhaps with valid reasons.)

Philip Quinlan's picture

1999 - Linux launch?

I'm pretty sure I was using Linux prior to 1999
1999 was the year of RedHat's IPO, but Linux was a viable OS for a while prior to that

Max Sinklair's picture

Great read, thank you. "In

Great read, thank you.

"In the middle of December 1992 he published version 0.99 using the GNU GPL"

Quoted from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux#Linux_under_the_GNU_GPL

Contrarian's picture

I cannot disagree more. A

I cannot disagree more.

A patent is an enticement from government [i.e., a society] to its members to disclose their knowledge about how to make and use inventions. In exchange, the inventor is granted the exclusive right to sell the inventions for 20 years.

Quibble all you want about the quality of patents or even the proper monopoly term, but patent databases compile mountains of commercially useful information that would otherwise be scattered in the ether or not disclosed at all. Those mountains of information can be -- and are -- mined very effectively to advance useful technologies.

You may prefer that the motivation to invent will be the good karma that comes from spending scarce time and money to create and share a useful thing but that is simple childish folly -- what best motivates man is the reward that results from doing work. And that is as it should be.

As for the alleged US penchant for hoarding information, the facts are clearly otherwise. There are countless academic, technical, and industry journals published in the US every week that form the wellspring of a raging river of information. We have too much publicly-available information to digest and manage effectively, not too little.

India has compiled what it calls "its" traditional knowledge in a database that it makes available under a non-disclosure agreement to patent offices around the world as a source of prior art. Two things: if knowledge is meant, as you say, to be shared, why is India claiming this knowledge as its own and why isn't it freely sharing this knowledge with the world?

It doesn't because there is a tradition throughout the world and time of adopting the view that what is mine is mine and what is yours is yours [yours, at least for now]. It is apparently spiritually fine for India -- the country -- to hoard "its" information but not fine for any one individual or company to do so. If there is a reasoned distinction, however, I've yet to hear it.

Capturing knowledge that defines useful things [which is a very, very small subset of "knowledge"] as "property" is a very efficient mechanism to incentivize its creation and to compile that information in a societally beneficial way.

W^L+'s picture

A patent is an enticement from government [i.e., a society] to its members to disclose their knowledge about how to make and use inventions. In exchange, the inventor is granted the exclusive right to sell the inventions for 20 years.

In theory, this is true. In reality, patents are not written to make it easy for "one skilled in the art" to reproduce, as they should be. Instead, they are written to obfuscate their true content, and to be overly-broad, in order to prevent similar ways of accomplishing similar tasks from being used [without first licensing the patent].

As for the alleged US penchant for hoarding information, the facts are clearly otherwise. There are countless academic, technical, and industry journals published in the US every week that form the wellspring of a raging river of information. We have too much publicly-available information to digest and manage effectively, not too little.

There is plenty of theoretical information being published in those journals. But practical, useful information, the kind that real people in real jobs can use, isn't available there. In a sense, those journals are a firehose of useless information, with an occasional useful nugget that slips into them. And if this information ever was useful, they'd need to buy licenses.

Fortunately, regular people, the kind that actually do work and create things, often post such information online.

Capturing knowledge that defines useful things [which is a very, very small subset of "knowledge"] as "property" is a very efficient mechanism to incentivize its creation and to compile that information in a societally beneficial way.

In fact, that property often encompasses knowledge that was already known and in use. In this case, all that propertizing does is burden society with "rent" for using what was already in use. In the real world, several people typically "invent" or create the same thing around the same time. Generally, only one of them is able to obtain the patent or copyright. This leaves the others with the potential of having to pay to use something they invented on their own. It might be acceptable if the exclusivity period was five years or less. But overly-long exclusive periods not only affect competing inventors and companies, they also hinder follow-on inventions. In effect, patents as presently practiced in the United States act as brakes on genuine invention. (We substitute "innovation", which is merely productizing someone else's ideas, in order to avoid looking foolish for insisting on stronger and longer "intellectual property" protection.)

Contrarian's picture

You write "... patents are

You write "... patents are not written to make it easy for "one skilled in the art" to reproduce ..." and are "overly-broad."

Response: If the disclosure that describes an invention is not "enabled" then it doesn't issue as a patent. If you're arguing for dumbed down patent specifications that rule would, I submit, hamper the transfer of useful information. As for overly broad patents issuing, you are most certainly correct -- especially in your field of software. The solution, however, is tightening the patent grants [which is being done by the courts] not ignoring -- or denying -- the incentivizing and disclosure value of patents.

You write: "... There is plenty of theoretical information being published ... "

Response: We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I can tell you first hand that companies and academia disclose enormous amounts of useful -- and patentable -- information routinely in all technology fields.

You write: patentable "property often encompasses knowledge that was already known and in use."

Response: Patent folks talk about two kinds of patents when thinking through their value. "Pioneer" patents disclose technology that has never been disclosed before. These are very valuable. "Improvement" patents build on what has come before -- either by improving on the pioneer tech or combining in some non-obvious way tech that has existed before. As for the latter, the unique combination of what came before IS an inventive step that merits reward. Yes, the "obviousness" standard is sometimes too low -- but, again, the courts [and lately the Patent Offices] are handling that issue very aggressively.

As for a subsequent person "inventing" what another has already invented -- true concurrent inventorship does not happen -- the subsequent person has NOT invented anything. He may have independently created something useful but the very definition of "invent" is to be the first to create. A rule that says the subsequent creator is ALSO an inventor because he did not know about the first creation is not, in practice, manageable.

There are economic and and other public policy reasons against a strong patent protection scheme. But you haven't made them.

W^L+'s picture

You write "... patents are

You write "... patents are not written to make it easy for "one skilled in the art" to reproduce ..." and are "overly-broad."

Response: If the disclosure that describes an invention is not "enabled" then it doesn't issue as a patent. If you're arguing for dumbed down patent specifications that rule would, I submit, hamper the transfer of useful information. As for overly broad patents issuing, you are most certainly correct -- especially in your field of software. The solution, however, is tightening the patent grants [which is being done by the courts] not ignoring -- or denying -- the incentivizing and disclosure value of patents.

Take an actual look at the USPTO site (or Google's patents site). Clearly, patents are not written in a way that discloses the useful idea to those who work in that field. They are written (1) to obscure that information and (2) to block others from using similar ideas.

There is hardly any large business, particularly in software, that hasn't been bitten by patents written to cover an area the size of New Jersey that affect products that have been in the market for twenty years. At least they have patents of their own and large purses. Smaller companies haven't got a shot at keeping the doors open in that situation.

W^L+'s picture

The first two paragraphs are quoted from above.

Roy Langston's picture

IP monopoies

contrarian writes:

"As for a subsequent person "inventing" what another has already invented -- true concurrent inventorship does not happen -- the subsequent person has NOT invented anything."

Obviously, that statement is a bald lie. Just as one example, the bow and arrow was invented independently a number of times in widely different locations. To claim that only the first person to make one invented it is self-evidently absurd.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire

The above absurdity is promulgated to make people commit atrocities such as forcibly depriving people of access to cheap drugs they need to survive.

All apologists for unjust privilege promulgate such absurd and evil lies, without exception.

"He may have independently created something useful but the very definition of "invent" is to be the first to create."

That is a bald lie about the definition of "invent":

"invent, v.t., 1. to originate as a product of one's own contrivance" -- Webster's New Universal Unabridged

No dictionary definition of "invent" that I am aware of specifies that only the first to invent something has invented anything.

"A rule that says the subsequent creator is ALSO an inventor because he did not know about the first creation is not, in practice, manageable."

I see. So, facts of objective reality are to be deleted because they do not support your false and evil belief that legal enforcement of private property in the knowledge contained in peoples' minds must be "manageable."

Somehow, I kinda figured it'd be something like that...

Contrarian's picture

Roy, you've come unglued.

Roy, you've come unglued. Flamers such as yourself inhibit civil discourse. If you have an argument to make then make it, otherwise just sit quietly on the sidelines.

venky's picture

Contrarian, I think you have missed the point of my article. When the government grants a 20 year monopoly, thus creating "intellectual property," it is taking what was previously in the "knowledge commons" and turning it into private property. How far should such privatization and propertization go? Should there be absolutely no limits on such propertization? Should children have to license the patent for "Method for swinging on a swing" before they rush out to the playground?

You say that, "what best motivates man is the reward that results from doing work." By reward, are you implying "financial rewards" or also including the reputation, satisfaction, fun and other intangible rewards that accompany innovation? Read the works of people like Richard Feynman and you realize that the drive to innovate is an intrinsic drive. The propaganda that financial motivation is the biggest motivation has been repeated ad nauseam. If that were the only (or primary motivation) much of open source software would not have existed. It's not a random thing that Linus Torvald's biography is titled, "Just for Fun."

"the alleged US penchant for hoarding information" are your words not mine.

India's traditional knowledge database compiles what is already public knowledge in disciplines like yoga and ayurveda. As to why they require an NDA, you should ask them since I am not their spokesperson.

I like the distinction you make between, "capturing knowledge that defines useful things" and knowledge itself. If used well, I agree with you that it can be, as you say, "a very efficient mechanism to incentivize its creation and to compile that information in a societally beneficial way." Unfortunately the evidence from sources far more authoritative than I am, is that the system that was meant to create incentives is now actively creating disincentives.

For further reading, I would suggest:

"Innovation and Its Discontents: How Our Broken Patent System Is Endangering Innovation and Progress, and What to Do About It" (Princeton, 2004).

http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/chapters/i7810.html

Patent Failure: How Judges, Bureaucrats, and Lawyers Put Innovators at Risk

http://www.researchoninnovation.org/dopatentswork/

Regards,

Venky

Satya's picture

Great Article

Thanks for this wonderful article. By the way, the Indian values depicted here are more true if we go back to thousands of years.
The only secrets that were closely guarded by Indian sages, seers of the ancient times were the disastrous weapon technology that was equivalent to modern nuclear weapons. Everything else was an open source!

Andy's picture

Ancient times

Satya, your mention of ancient weapon technology is intriguing to this open-minded skeptic. Have seen allusions to, and hints of, what you mentioned here in various sources. There does seem to be a little validity to the idea of a highly developed civilization existing during the last ice-age. Seems like quite a stretch, but not totally impossible. This would probably be a more appropriate topic to take off-line, but I would be very interested in more information. The Vedas contain such references, but are there other sources?

CustomDesigned's picture

I am ignorant (and intrigued) concerning ancient Indian weapons, but in the Byzantine Empire, "Greek Fire" (similar to napalm) was a closely guarded weapons technology.

Andy's picture

Ancient Super Weapons

Hi Stuart,

Yes, and apparently the Romans were quite familiar with steam based technology, but they didn't grasp its significance and basically used it to open large temple doors to awe the peasants, etc. Since humans have had pretty much the same physical brain for about 4 million years, it seems logical that someone somewhere along the way was as inventive as "modern" man, and may have devised some means of dealing with their environment that would raise a few eyebrows back at the archaeologist's club. The more we learn about the distant past, even back to the ancient Greeks (seen the info on the little mechanical calculator dug up from a Mediterranean wreck?), the more we find we may have underestimated those folks. Some would say many of the worlds great myths spring from a kernel of fact in the dim past. I'm inclined to think much of the ancient astronaut mythos should perhaps be attributed to our ancient elders who probably deserve more credit. Certainly food for thought, and a lot of fun to contemplate isn't it? Thanks for the note.

Contrarian's picture

You write: "When the

You write: "When the government grants a 20 year monopoly, thus creating 'intellectual property,' it is taking what was previously in the 'knowledge commons' and turning it into private property."

Response: That statement is not only false, it is the false premise upon which your opposition to intellectual property lies.

Bach's concerto's, Shakespeare's sonnets, Picasso's paintings, Rodin's sculptures --- NONE of those works simply existed in whatever is this "knowledge commons" that you so admire. All were created by the combination of money, time, talent, and inspiration and, because of those efforts, all were exclusively owned by their creator -- that is, all were the intellectual property of their creator.

You will say, "Ah, but that is art. The creator of art is entitled to his rewards. No one should be allowed to reproduce a Shakespeare sonnet and call it his own. Shakespeare alone has that right." Of course.

But inventiveness is quite literally the "useful art." Should Edison's work be less protected than Shakespeare's simply because people can use his light bulb but can only read Shakespeare's sonnets? Is that what underlies your abhorrence to intellectual property -- that people desire new material things and therefore have a right to them?

Like Edison's work, extraordinary work has been, and is, being done around the world which constantly breaks new ground in our understanding of our world. The result is NEW knowledge -- not factoids that resides in some ethereal "knowledge commons" that you believe exists somewhere.

When that NEW knowledge is applied to create new products, processes, or plants -- or is used to improve on those that are existing -- then the person who spent his time and talent to create that something new is entitled to own it.

What is your rationale for allowing someone to step in at the end of that creative process and benefit by making the product, using the process, or growing and selling the plant? To each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities? Hmm. We've seen how that has played out throughout history.

You write: "By reward, are you implying "financial rewards" or also including the reputation, satisfaction, fun and other intangible rewards that accompany innovation? Read the works of people like Richard Feynman and you realize that the drive to innovate is an intrinsic drive. The propaganda that financial motivation is the biggest motivation has been repeated ad nauseam. If that were the only (or primary motivation) much of open source software would not have existed."

The drive to create is, of course, an inherent part of the human psyche -- and soul. That's obvious.

The question is not WHETHER there will be inventions and artistic works created (by individuals and by collaborations), the question for society is how best to motivate their creation. Rejecting the fact that creators are motivated by financial reward is Pollyanna school girl fantasy. But it's much more than that: it is a rejection of the premise that the creator of the work has the RIGHT to exclusively own the results of his labors. No one else -- and certainly not "society." If you deny that premise that you deny the theory of property.

Read Ayn Rand. As for your suggested readings, there are many folks who share your view that the patent system is fundamentally flawed. And some even believe it rests on a false foundation -- that there simply is no intellectual property. Of course man-made systems can be improved. Which is a silly thing to have to grant because it's obvious but if that helps there you go.

As for there being no intellectual property, just go ahead and make that argument to any inventor or artist and then tell him that you have just as much as he to make his invention or recreate his art and then sell them. That is disgusting.

What a world you live in where what is mine is yours and what is yours is ... well, is it mine? When through your efforts you create the tools and methods that permit the mass market to make 3D images am I going to be allowed to sell them? And call them mine -- because, now that they're made, they reside in the "knowledge commons?"

Your position on intellectual property is fashionable but philosophically bankrupt and socially bad policy.

venky's picture

Contrarian, I'd be interested in your take after you have read the resources listed below.

"Innovation and Its Discontents: How Our Broken Patent System Is Endangering Innovation and Progress, and What to Do About It" (Princeton, 2004).

http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/chapters/i7810.html

Patent Failure: How Judges, Bureaucrats, and Lawyers Put Innovators at Risk

http://www.researchoninnovation.org/dopatentswork/

Venky

W^L+'s picture

I'm an American, and the sole legal basis for patents and copyrights is in the Constitution. It clearly tells us that the reason for allowing creators and inventors to have limited exclusivity is in order to motivate them to produce benefits for society as a whole.

I'm not (and I don't think anyone else is) arguing for *no* patents or copyrights at all. The argument is that they are being stretched far beyond their intended scope, which is having a negative effect on the creation of new goods, services, and works of art & music. And that "inventions" are covering items that were already "invented", known, and used, boxing up common property into corporation-owned packages.

I believe the original article is contrasting the grab-it-and-claim-it-for-your-own American copyright / patent system with India's historic system of freely-shared knowledge. I haven't any knowledge of India, but the time is long past when the US system was beneficial in any way. We are slowly letting the IP system strangle our society. I can see someone patenting a method of delivering dihydrogen monoxide to the body ("hydrating") using the mouth as the entrance to the alimentary canal. After that date, everyone who consumes a water-containing product must buy a license.

venky's picture

I couldn't have said it better, though I would have phrased it differently. And I cannot help repeating my disclaimer that I am not interested in value judgments of Indian or America societies. The larger debate is striking the right balance between "intellectual property" and "knowledge commons."

Contrarian's picture

You wrote: '"... the sole

You wrote: '"... the sole legal basis for patents and copyrights is in the Constitution. It clearly tells us that the reason for allowing creators and inventors to have limited exclusivity is in order to motivate them to produce benefits for society as a whole."

Response: There's the rub. You apparently think that our intellectual property laws are for the purpose of producing "benefits" to society -- by which I take you to mean that those laws confer on society some claim of right to the results of its members' inventiveness and creativity. You're flat wrong.

The purpose of our intellectual property laws is to motivate the creation of more, and more, and more useful and artistic things. THAT is what is meant by "To promote the progress of science and the useful arts ... " the creator has the exclusive right to exploit his or her creations for a limited time.

No one ever has a claim on the creator's actual physical creation or, for a limited time, on the "intellectual property" that underlies it.

Copies of the thing -- i.e., the invention, the sculpture, the book, etc. -- can be [if the creator so chooses] distributed throughout society. If that is the "benefit" you believe flows to society then, of course. But that is a secondary effect after what MUST come first -- the actual creation of the thing.

Your "let's create laws to benefit society as a whole" assertion highlights our divergence of thought: where you apparently see intellectual property laws as a mechanism to transfer products and creations to society, I [and our founders] see intellectual property laws as a mechanism to motivate their production. The difference is significant because in your case you assume that what's to be transferred already exists. I assume that our laws are a means to motivate their creation.

In short, the "benefits" to society are not, in the first instance, the usefulness of the thing but rather the conditions necessary to create the thing.

As for our patent laws fencing off what you think is public domain information that, of course, happens occasionally. But there are mechanisms even outside the Patent Office to keep that in check [during examination anyone can file a letter of protest or submit prior art and after issuance anyone can -- even anonymously -- demand reexamination and, if the patent is being asserted against a person, then that person can challenge its validity].

If all you are squabbling about is that the patent system is not perfect then you're howling at the moon. Makes you feel good but it doesn't do a damn thing.

If you're saying, however, that because the US intellectual property scheme is so fundamentally flawed that India would do well not to recreate it, then you have not come close to making that argument.

Natanael L's picture

I disagree

"You apparently think that our intellectual property laws are for the purpose of producing "benefits" to society -- by which I take you to mean that those laws confer on society some claim of right to the results of its members' inventiveness and creativity. You're flat wrong."
Why encourage creation if nothing is done with it? As I said earlier - what good are medicins, the LHC, cars and whatever else if nobody gets to use it? Then why would you ever want it's inventor to invent it?
How can you be so sure that the people who invent for the sake of it wouldn't have made it better, even if they did it 10 years later (10 years before the ultra-capitaltist's one was available)?

"The purpose of our intellectual property laws is to motivate the creation of more, and more, and more useful and artistic things. THAT is what is meant by "To promote the progress of science and the useful arts ... " the creator has the exclusive right to exploit his or her creations for a limited time."
As the only one? No, I've responded to this several times. The creator should be encouraged to share, not to restrict. Sure, they deserve rewards - but not 10x the budget spent on inventing the thing while preventing wide spread use.

"Copies of the thing -- i.e., the invention, the sculpture, the book, etc. -- can be [if the creator so chooses] distributed throughout society. If that is the "benefit" you believe flows to society then, of course. But that is a secondary effect after what MUST come first -- the actual creation of the thing."
If the creator not chooses to distribute it, I see no meaning in encouraging it's creation. If he does, then the system works, And yes - inventing it must come first. That's why we want a system in which EVERYBODY are encouraged to create.
This system is more and more turning to a class system, where there are inventors/creators, distributers and their laywers who get most of the money, and users. That's the biggest issue.
And inventors WILL (!!!!) keep inventing even without patents!
Just look at free and open source software and Creative Commons!

"Your "let's create laws to benefit society as a whole" assertion highlights our divergence of thought: where you apparently see intellectual property laws as a mechanism to transfer products and creations to society, I [and our founders] see intellectual property laws as a mechanism to motivate their production. The difference is significant because in your case you assume that what's to be transferred already exists. I assume that our laws are a means to motivate their creation."
As I said before - what use are the laws if the tings they protect aren't used? If things are created at a slow pace by a few inventors of which fewer get rich, why not just remove that system?
And no - none of us assumes that the inventions already exists - we assume THAT THEY STILL WILL BE MADE without patents!!!
Maybe not in the way they are now, but so what? There are plenty of old industries who where destroyed by smaller and more efficient systems. And suddenly things were made in a completely different way. And more people got to share the benefits. Is there anything wrong with that?

"As for our patent laws fencing off what you think is public domain information that, of course, happens occasionally"
No, it's all the time. The next time you look at a pile of patents, go and search randomly for a few in some random areas. Look for about 50 of them. Now, tell me, please, how many of them that covers actual inventions and are written in such a way that somebody like me could use it (and who's license costs are low enough)?
And how do I know who owns the patent? (It's rarely the person who's name is on it, and I guess you know that)

"But there are mechanisms even outside the Patent Office to keep that in check [during examination anyone can file a letter of protest or submit prior art and after issuance anyone can -- even anonymously -- demand reexamination and, if the patent is being asserted against a person, then that person can challenge its validity]."
How do I find a filed patent that covers what I'm working and and potentially could start working on in a few months if what I work on change direction, and how do I challange a patent application that is flawed? And can I do that from Sweden? Because if the patent is granted, my software could be banned in the USA if the users don't pay for licenses.

"If all you are squabbling about is that the patent system is not perfect then you're howling at the moon. Makes you feel good but it doesn't do a damn thing.
If you're saying, however, that because the US intellectual property scheme is so fundamentally flawed that India would do well not to recreate it, then you have not come close to making that argument."
No? Haven't you understood already what's wrong with the system? And why would anybody want to import a system that ain't working into a country with a much bigger population at a lower level of development?

And did you know that the real leap in development when all the airplane patents where forced into a patent pool that was cheap to license?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wright_brothers_patent_war

And read this (mostly about copyright, but touches patents): http://www.ibiblio.org/ebooks/Lessig/Free_Culture/Free%20Culture.htm#p183

Your move - why would India want the US patent system?

Contrarian's picture

Re I disagree

Natanael, only good things flow from frank, honest exchanges of ideas when -- but only when -- the minds of both sides are open. As is yours.

So, although I don't have the time to continue this dialogue, thanks for sharing your ideas.

Something for you to consider: how men should behave and how they do are very different things.
When creating law we must assume the latter and, as importantly, not be enticed into falsely believing that law can change our base human motivations -- rather, law can only characterize our conduct as lawful or not and establish the penalties for that which is not. And so law is not truth -- that is, it is not objective but rather a negotiated collective agreement among people [at that time] about societal conduct. That agreement changes dramatically over time and is structured very differently among different peoples.

All of which is to say that you -- and the rest of us -- have a contribution to make when discussing how the US should fashion its intellectual property laws. This very dialogue has been going on since the founding of our nation. I commend you to read some of it before you set your position in stone.

Roy Langston's picture

More Lies

Contrarian wrote:

>You write: "When the government grants a 20 year >monopoly, thus creating 'intellectual property,' it is >taking what was previously in the 'knowledge >commons' and turning it into private property."

>Response: That statement is not only false, it is the >false premise upon which your opposition to intellectual >property lies.

It is not false. It is indisputably true.

>Bach's concerto's, Shakespeare's sonnets, Picasso's >paintings, Rodin's sculptures --- NONE of those works >simply existed in whatever is this "knowledge >commons" that you so admire.

They all did, as soon as they were performed, published or sold. That is an indisputable fact of objective physical reality. You just refuse to know such facts, because you have realized that they prove your beliefs are false and evil.

>All were created by the combination of money, time, >talent, and inspiration and, because of those efforts, all >were exclusively owned by their creator -- that is, all >were the intellectual property of their creator.

No, that is just another lie on your part. The moment those works existed in anyone's mind but their creators', they were indisputably not, repeat, NOT exclusively owned by their creators. That is a self-evident and indisputable fact of objective physical reality. You just refuse to know such facts, because you have realized that they prove your beliefs are false and evil.

Contrarian's picture

Te audire non possum. Musa

Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

carl's picture

that explains much. Perhaps you should check into having it removed....

Contrarian's picture

banana

It takes all the fun out of wit and parry when you have to engage on both sides of the skirmish.

The banana, Carl, is in its rightful place because that was what was available to hamper Roy's irrational screeching. My error,clearly, was removing it too soon.

Roy Langston's picture

Irrational...?

Contrarian wrote:

"It takes all the fun out of wit and parry when you have to engage on both sides of the skirmish."

Huh?? This, from the guy who has been unable to muster even a response to my demolition of his ludicrous claims?

"The banana, Carl, is in its rightful place because that was what was available to hamper Roy's irrational screeching."

I have provided facts and logic that prove your claims are false and absurd. You have been unable to refute anything I have written -- indeed, have been unable even to respond to it. Simple.

Dismissing facts and logic that prove you wrong as "irrational screeching" is not an argument, contrarian, sorry.

Contrarian's picture

You're being ignored, Roy,

You're being ignored, Roy, because what you have to say is not only mean-spirited it is, more fundamentally, so dumb that a proper response would have to start at zero and build all the constructs necessary for an intelligent dialogue to occur. Life's too short to carry mean folks on my back.

Roy Langston's picture

Too Funny...

Contrarian wrote:

"You're being ignored, Roy, because what you have to say is not only mean-spirited"

I see. So, when I oppose an unjust privilege that forcibly deprives millions of desperately ill people of treatment they could otherwise have accessed, that's me being "mean-spirited." And when I identify the fact that millions of those innocent people are DYING because of the indefensible monopoly patent privileges you try to defend, rationalize and justify, that's me being "mean-spirited" again.

Somehow, I kinda figured it'd be something like that...

"it is, more fundamentally, so dumb that a proper response would have to start at zero and build all the constructs necessary for an intelligent dialogue to occur."

Translation: I will not let you get away with begging the question, and you consequently have no argument at all to offer. Simple.

"Life's too short to carry mean folks on my back."

I'm not the one who tries to rationalize KILLING millions of innocent people by forcibly depriving them of their liberty, sunshine. You are.

Stick a fork in yourself. You're done.

Natanael_L's picture

"Bach's concerto's, Shakespeare's sonnets, Picasso's paintings, Rodin's sculptures --- NONE of those works simply existed in whatever is this "knowledge commons" that you so admire. All were created by the combination of money, time, talent, and inspiration and, because of those efforts, all were exclusively owned by their creator -- that is, all were the intellectual property of their creator."

Uhmm... The physical items where of course the property of the creator, but I doubt that any of them could do anything about copying at the time besides accusing those people for plagiarism and have them mocked for it in case they claimed it was theirs.

"You will say, "Ah, but that is art. The creator of art is entitled to his rewards. No one should be allowed to reproduce a Shakespeare sonnet and call it his own. Shakespeare alone has that right." Of course. "
Huh? Of course I won't prevent anybody from selling their creations. But I disagree when they try to prevent people from mimicing it to such an extent that they try to have them put in jail for years.

"The drive to create is, of course, an inherent part of the human psyche -- and soul. That's obvious.
The question is not WHETHER there will be inventions and artistic works created (by individuals and by collaborations), the question for society is how best to motivate their creation."
No. The question is what gives the biggest benefit to the society. What meaning would it be with an HIV vaccine that nobody can use? The LHC if the data was inaccessible? Anything, really?
If it's not going to be available to the public when created, I see no benefit in encouraging it's creation. Rather the opposite.
I see a much bigger benefit in encouraging sharing.

"Rejecting the fact that creators are motivated by financial reward is Pollyanna school girl fantasy. But it's much more than that: it is a rejection of the premise that the creator of the work has the RIGHT to exclusively own the results of his labors. No one else -- and certainly not "society." If you deny that premise that you deny the theory of property. "
1: Many inventors are not motivated by money at all.
2: What says he has the exclusive right? The law which has been written by people like you?
3: No, you do. The "theory of property" is that if you've made an effort to get something, you get to keep it.

"When through your efforts you create the tools and methods that permit the mass market to make 3D images am I going to be allowed to sell them? And call them mine -- because, now that they're made, they reside in the "knowledge commons?""
There are tool for everybody to make 3D images, such as Blender. The GPL says you can charge anything you want, just provide the source too. And you can't remove the GPL. And no, you can't claim you made it, that's a huge no-no among all serious artists and programmers.

"Your position on intellectual property is fashionable but philosophically bankrupt and socially bad policy."
Linux, Firefox, OpenOffice, Jamendo.com with Creative Commons... Your move.

Tech geek!

Natanael L's picture

Quick note

I didn't have time to finish the post because I was interrupted, and I don't have time now either. I'm gonna write some more about property and other stuff later.

(I didn't write in chronological order or anything, I just commented randomly and then changed the order to match the post I commented)

Juraj Ferianc's picture

Indian view vs. Christianity

I find it very interesting to explain "Intelectual Porperty" as a matter of philosophical or theological point of view. I can just add that maybe the origin of it we can find in history as a knowledgebase hid from public in cloisters or else as a power for minority to rule over majority

Andy's picture

Patents

Some very eloquent and intelligent posts here regarding property law. As a medical professional, I see echoes in this conversation of the great current debate regarding patent law as applied to the discovery of human gene sequences. A short time ago, various parties were working furiously to be the first to claim they had finally mapped the entire human genome. On one side were publicly funded groups who were mandated to publicize their findings as they proceeded. On the other side were privately backed groups who were under no such obligation to publicize anything to anyone except their financial benefactors.

Both sides knew full well what was at stake. If the publicly funded groups (MIT, for example) won the race, the privately funded groups would not be able to license access to their findings. On the other hand, if the privately funded groups won the race, the discovered information would be provided to those prepared to pay for it, and agree to potentially complex terms, thereby discouraging/suffocating much desperately needed development. Note: The privately funded groups did not hesitate to utilize all available research that was pouring out of the efforts of the publicly funded groups.

In the end, the race was declared a tie, essentially resulting in a horse designed by a committee. At this time, the large pharmaceutical companies with enormous resources, who funded their private groups' research, own most of the "patents". One can question the right of anyone to claim ownership of a group of molecules discovered within the human genome. Do your genes belong to someone else? Did these researchers invent these genes? Mind you, these patents are not for processes or technology developed during the race, but simply, and plainly, for the genes themselves.

Not withstanding the arguments people of faith might make about the Creator being the only inventor with a right to claim invention ownership in this case, these appear to be silly questions. However, in the effort to promote and reward those who poured enormous time, effort, and funds into this project, our patent system has apparently answered "yes" to both questions. Some would argue that this is equivalent to someone successfully filing a patent on an individual's fingerprint. But here we are.

The upshot: An enormous amount of urgently needed genetic research is either not being undertaken because of fear of treading on the toes of some unknown party that has laid claim to a group of genes, or in some cases, the research moves forward, painfully slowly, as patent issues (royalties, etc.) are dealt with. Our patent system is intent on making sure the owners of these gene sequences do not go unrewarded for their efforts. To do so might discourage further research leading to similar discoveries.

So without taking a side on this issue (in this forum), this writer would simply ask; who among you has not had their life painfully touched by cancer, or other genetically related diseases? Are you comfortable with this situation? How many of you have children who have been diagnosed with a genetically related terminal disease, only to be told by frustrated providers that a cure is close at hand but at the moment, promising research for this issue is currently tied up in the court system due to patent infringement (property rights) lawsuits?

Do you see some parallels here?

Contrarian's picture

I don't have the time to

I don't have the time to properly address the issues that you raise. Very good and clearly understandable information about "gene patents," however, is available at http://j.mp/d0C7XG .

venky's picture

Perhaps this will help explain the reason for our disagreements. My specific concern is more with software patents because it converts methods that could have been freely practiced by software developers into private property. To me, these are things that should be in the "knowledge commons" and freely available to everyone. Instead of going into details here, let me point you to my blog entry titled, "the Practical problem with software patents" at:

http://osindia.blogspot.com/2008/11/practical-problem-with-software-pate...

I'd also like to add that most of this article is not really connected to copyrights and trademarks. Perhaps, I should have been more explicit about it. Thanks for the gene patenting link. I look forward to reading it at the earliest.

Andy's picture

Gene Patents

Thank you Contrarian, for the link to this excellent article. Hopefully, narrowing claims to "only copies made from their original copy of the gene sequence" will in fact become the law of the land in this regard. Seems like a reasonable solution in this instance. Some of the readers here may also find: "DNA - The Secret of Life" by James D. Watson (co-discoverer with Crick of the dbl. helix) to provide an interesting, "insiders" view of the research and discovery process, complete with human foibles and legal entanglements that developed, and are still being wrestled with by the patent system. The parallels between patent issues involving genetics and Open-source issues are interesting to this ex-IT, now medical field professional. Thanks again.

sploodge's picture

IP is far more than just patents...

Many of the comments above are interesting and well thought-out but rather overlook the point that IP is not just pure knowledge. It also covers branding and copyright. In fact, MOST IP is connected with things which are not inventions. The problem that I perceive is that too many people are confusing the concept of knowledge with the bread and butter work of implementation.

As it happens, I believe strongly in open source and have created and contributed to several projects, but I also believe that individuals, institutions and corporations have the right to protect their own interests in retaining and controlling the rights to use the results of their labors.

I also think that the writer and others confuse the idea that knowledge should not be restricted with the idea that knowledge is somehow "free". In fact, obtaining knowledge can be very expensive indeed, for example the cost of building something like a super-collider! There's a major difference between placing information in the public domain (something, by the way, that almost no open-source project does) and restricting access to that information by making it private or secret.

If an individual spends months or years creating something of value to you, then you should expect that they need to be reasonably compensated. If you take the product of their hard work from them and disseminate it on the Internet for nothing then you are stealing from them as surely as if you broke into their house and stole the food from their table.

Andy's picture

IP is far more than just patents ...

You have my complete agreement. Your points all well taken, and appreciated by all (I hope). The parallel I pointed out was a case where knowledge was, in large part, paid for by public funding. It could be argued that the theft in this case (genetics) was that of privately funded groups taking publicly funded research results, with the end result that much of that data was no longer available in a practical sense, to those who paid for it, and many more who will literally pay with their lives.

There were at least two different forms of incentive occurring to encourage the various research groups to speed their work. 1.) Professional competition, spurred to some extent by vanity/ego, and 2.) monetary gain. No doubt, the public institutions were essentially competing for future public funding.

My concern with the medical parallel, is how to avoid patenting something that has been discovered, rather than created, while providing reward to those who richly deserve it through their efforts. It seems our legal system is doing its best to muddle through these questions as well as it can, given what it has to work with (previous precedent, etc.). This parallel (Genetics), like most analogies, only goes so far.

It seems so rare to see truly rational discussions and debates on the web, that most of us don't even read these things any more, having quickly tired of adolescent name calling and such.

My plea to all of you who are contributing to this current discussion is to please continue with the intelligent , thoughtful, and considerate input, so that others will be drawn into the discussion to learn and share. This is so refreshing. Please carry on!

Ujjwol's picture

Brilliant

This is an great read.
The same applies to learning Sanskrit.

Madhukar's picture

Indian tradition of free knowledge

Sadly, the great Indian tradition of free knowledge was not practised in many celebrated cases. The tribal boy Eklavya (story in Mahabharata, the Indian epic) became proficient in archery drawing inspiration from a person whom he considered to be his guru, the guru, sadly, considered himself to be a teacher to princes only. As part of his teaching fee(irony was that he never imparted any lessons) he asked for the thumb of the boy who gladly gave it and forewent his claim to be the greatest archer of them all. This was an assertion of restriction over knowledge.
The human manifestation of God on the Earth, Lord Ram, cut of the head of a low-born Shambuk because he recited the Vedas, the divine books which were meant for the ears of only the high-born. Same restriction but of a much more drastic kind.
The prescribed punishment for a low-born who heard the sound of the Vedas was to have molten lead poured into his/her ears.
As such, while free access to knowledge was a normative assertion in ancient India, it was not really translated into an existential reality. With lack of codified system of justice, a common law system that relied on the wisdom (or lack of it) of the local potentate was not really the best place to seek free access to knowledge.
Yet, this does not detract from the fact that indeed it was considered the highest form of charity to give knowledge freely. But charity counts for something only in the other world. This one is the material world where prosperity is what is desirable.

venky's picture

Madhukar, for me, one important takeaway from your post is that while ideals are important, the practice of these ideals in day-to-day life is also equally important. The manner in which the ideals of sharing knowledge were subverted in ancient India to create the divisive caste system, should serve as a cautionary tale, not just for us Indians, but also for the world. As you (indirectly) point out, this system was based on excluding access to knowledge, for the so-called lower castes. Thousands of years later, we Indians still live with the repercussions of this deeply inequitable system. Today, thanks to the Internet, we can share knowledge faster and far more easily than at any other point in history. However, exclusionary tools like proprietary standards for data interchange, patents on methods and processes for writing software etc, are trends that are deeply antithetical to the openness and vitality of the Internet. We must not repeat the mistakes of history. More articles on open standards are on my blog at www.osindia.blogspot.com

theorysavage's picture

Buddhism is full of examples of gurus withholding knowledge. The justification, however, is that they are going to impart "wisdom" as opposed to knowledge, and that this wisdom can naturally only be gained through sacrifice of the ego (which of course often translates to the students' time/money) to others.

Then again, open source software is a bit like these 'secret' teachings of eastern religion -- in principle available to anyone with the desire and motivation to learn, but not without a great investment of energy and openness. Linux is freely available, but beyond the grasp of those without the dedication to understand it or participate in the open model.

Generosity creates wealth. Actively intending to limit the distribution of open source software to certain countries will increase poverty in the US and around the world.

"The best anti-poverty program around is a world class education".

And we would intend to deny certain countries the world-class education that open source provides? We are going to invest in restrictions? It is counter-productive to spend time building restrictions to knowledge that is self-secret, and should be left available to anyone smart enough to participate.

Contrarian's picture

Tom, I like your contribution

Tom,

I like your contribution to this discussion very much. And I wholeheartedly agree that good karma and spiritual rewards flows to those who freely give of themselves and freely offer the fruits of their labors to others. All benefit. My position is only that society has no right to require such sacrifices.

theorysavage's picture

No right to require, I agree. If society requires sacrifice, then the individual who shares unwillingly is forced to have greedy thoughts and does not gain the good karma or the benefits of generosity.

I am saying that society has no right to restrict generosity, such as Americans' ability to serve FOSS software to anyone who desires it.

Contrarian's picture

I certainly agree that

I certainly agree that society has no right to restrict the distribution of free and open source software, subject to the conditions placed on its use -- such as the gnu requirements that all copies carry a copyright notice and that modifications [if not distributed] may remain secret.

If your point is that there's much public domain code in patented and/or copyrighted computer programs, that's certainly true [though much less true for the former than the latter]. The long, venerable, and [admittedly] socially beneficial history of programmers sharing code has resulted in it being impossible in many instances to determine who wrote what -- and, for us legal beagles, who owns what.

But copyright law has rules for extracting from protection the unprotected elements of that which is claimed to be under copyright and then using only the remainder to determine if there's been an infringement. Which is certainly not a clean or very efficient system, but it does balance the rights of the public along with the rights of the code-creator.

theorysavage's picture

restrictions

Sorry, I was not thinking of patents so much as SourceForge's firewalling of certain countries' access to internationally created free software, as if it is US Intellectual Property that can be restricted as an export.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=5698&tag=trunk;content

Contrarian's picture

Wow. Thanks for the link. It

Wow. Thanks for the link. It will be very interesting how the open source community responds.

On the one hand, why should open source developers expend the resources to fight the restrictions? I don't see the economic benefit.

On the other hand, the restrictions certainly impede [at least somewhat] further development of the software and its legitimate use by residents in the countries where access is prohibited. We already have a mature body of law dealing with export controls on technology. I don't know enough about that law to even think through whether restrictions on open source software is consistent with that law.

This is a perfect example of the complications that arise from the absence of national borders in cyberspace.

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